Saving the World One Case at a Time - John Uustal with author Ken McCallion

1
00:00:00,340 --> 00:00:05,410
Alright, so thanks for talking to
us today. You've written several

2
00:00:05,410 --> 00:00:11,150
books. Why did you decide to write
this one? Well, I decided

3
00:00:11,150 --> 00:00:15,560
that at least every 50 years of
legal practice, it would be,

4
00:00:16,140 --> 00:00:21,800
it might be a good time to take
a take a pause and look back

5
00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:26,480
over the cases I've been involved
in.Fortunately, I've been

6
00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:31,650
able to be involved in a number
of interesting ones I think And

7
00:00:31,660 --> 00:00:39,080
collect them in under one cover
and get it, get it out there.

8
00:00:39,090 --> 00:00:46,980
I've started also teaching more.
And so I think for the next

9
00:00:46,980 --> 00:00:51,350
generation of lawyers coming down
the pike, I know that when

10
00:00:51,350 --> 00:00:59,100
I was a kid or in law school, there
are a number of notable lawyers

11
00:00:59,100 --> 00:01:04,400
who had books out and had some
influence on my and my thinking

12
00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,220
and perhaps my career. Yeah. You've
certainly been involved in

13
00:01:08,220 --> 00:01:11,050
some fascinating cases and I want
to talk to you about that.

14
00:01:11,050 --> 00:01:14,630
But first I want to talk to you
about the title. How'd you come

15
00:01:14,630 --> 00:01:17,050
up with that? It's a great title.
How'd you come up with it?

16
00:01:17,940 --> 00:01:22,850
Sure, saving, saving the world
one case at a time. Well, um,

17
00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:28,510
I mean, it's a it's a bit of tongue
in cheek. Um of course,

18
00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:33,590
literally, while we can make a contribution,
I think for the betterment

19
00:01:33,590 --> 00:01:40,590
of the planet and for the justice
system, um US one lawyer and

20
00:01:40,590 --> 00:01:45,300
certainly even us collectively
as lawyers are, are not going

21
00:01:45,300 --> 00:01:51,640
to buy ourselves uh save the planet.
However, I think that when

22
00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:58,160
we all wrap it up and look back
I like, and I think most of us

23
00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,810
would like to say not only did
we make a living, but that uh

24
00:02:02,820 --> 00:02:07,510
we helped contribute at least in
some small way to further

25
00:02:07,510 --> 00:02:12,830
the justice system protecting
the environment, vindicating civil

26
00:02:12,830 --> 00:02:18,050
rights or doing other positive,
positive things in our career.

27
00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,630
Yeah. You've certainly done that.
I, and uh the last thing I'm

28
00:02:22,630 --> 00:02:25,240
gonna ask you is if you have
any advice to young lawyers,

29
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:30,520
but before we get there, um you
know, how was it you had quite

30
00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:37,490
an interesting career. How was it
that you were able to be involved

31
00:02:37,490 --> 00:02:41,650
in so many high-profile cases or
at least cases that had such

32
00:02:41,650 --> 00:02:45,830
an effect on, on our country. Why
why do you think that you know,

33
00:02:45,830 --> 00:02:51,310
was it just luck really? A combination
of things and it really

34
00:02:51,310 --> 00:02:56,760
depends on the case. For example,
the Exxon Valdez case.

35
00:02:57,340 --> 00:03:03,910
I had been a fairly prominent prosecutor,
both state and federal

36
00:03:03,910 --> 00:03:10,160
government but had joined a private
firm a and it was actually

37
00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:15,520
a maritime law firm, Hill Bets and
Nash. So when the Exxon Valdez

38
00:03:15,530 --> 00:03:23,280
went down and 1989 my law firm,
I was based in new york,

39
00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:28,520
got a call because we had handled
a number of maritime disasters

40
00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:35,470
before and also major environmental
cases. So we got a call really

41
00:03:35,470 --> 00:03:40,960
within hours of the ship sinking
by some of the native Alaskan

42
00:03:41,740 --> 00:03:46,720
corporation representatives who
asked us to come up there and

43
00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:52,610
I actually I went to the airport,
I got up in Anchorage Alaska

44
00:03:52,610 --> 00:03:58,530
and took a small plane flying out
over the Exxon Valdez and perhaps

45
00:03:58,530 --> 00:04:03,870
sadly I got there before a lot
of the response equipment did.

46
00:04:03,870 --> 00:04:09,300
It was a quiet day, there wasn't
much much weather and the oil

47
00:04:09,300 --> 00:04:14,610
was still potentially containable
at that point. So um other

48
00:04:14,610 --> 00:04:23,280
cases, um for example, You know
the September 11 cases, I was

49
00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:27,340
asked by the special master ken
Feinberg to take on a number

50
00:04:27,340 --> 00:04:33,180
of cases really on a pro bono basis.
And then a couple of months

51
00:04:33,180 --> 00:04:37,690
later there was a flight 5 87
to the Dominican Republic from

52
00:04:37,690 --> 00:04:42,620
JFK crashed. And people thought that
perhaps that was a terrorist

53
00:04:42,620 --> 00:04:49,830
event initially and some Dominican
actually a Dominican paralegal

54
00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:56,560
who worked in our law firm had actually
close friends and family,

55
00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:03,230
family friends who died on that
flight. So it's really been

56
00:05:03,230 --> 00:05:08,330
a combination of things. Um I
won't say I've gone after some

57
00:05:08,340 --> 00:05:15,090
cases, but when the holocaust
cases came along, I was really

58
00:05:15,420 --> 00:05:22,560
asked by some of the major Jewish
organizations uh to head up

59
00:05:22,940 --> 00:05:26,240
take a lead role in some of those
cases, particularly the french

60
00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:32,590
holocaust french bank cases and and
the german case against Germany

61
00:05:32,590 --> 00:05:37,560
and german industry and I like
to think that was maybe because

62
00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,930
of my legal skills, but actually
it was probably more in

63
00:05:41,930 --> 00:05:46,690
the nature of diplomatic skills and
helping navigate the political

64
00:05:46,690 --> 00:05:52,840
waters between various interests
and perhaps minor divisions

65
00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:57,270
between jewish organizations and
groups. So I was something

66
00:05:57,270 --> 00:06:02,760
of a neutral in that. So, so really
the answer is that it really

67
00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:08,880
has varied, but I've also, you know,
been known to take on cases

68
00:06:08,890 --> 00:06:15,460
potentially which many other lawyers
considered to be uh impossible

69
00:06:15,620 --> 00:06:21,520
and some of those worked out quite
nicely. So it's a matter of

70
00:06:21,530 --> 00:06:25,170
hopefully a little bit of skill,
a lot of Irish luck I would

71
00:06:25,170 --> 00:06:30,690
say was involved as well. You talk
a lot about the importance

72
00:06:30,690 --> 00:06:34,260
of our civil justice system. How
would, how would you, why do

73
00:06:34,260 --> 00:06:40,060
you think it's so important?
Well, it's it's it's really

74
00:06:40,060 --> 00:06:45,530
the, the gem and one of the jewels.
Um really in the American

75
00:06:45,530 --> 00:06:53,940
system, um our founding fathers probably
could have never contemplated

76
00:06:53,950 --> 00:07:00,770
 contingency fees, class actions.
However, early on in the 1st

77
00:07:00,770 --> 00:07:07,760
Judiciary Act of 1789 enacted
the federal tort claims act.

78
00:07:08,540 --> 00:07:14,220
And basically the theory back
then was that the courts of

79
00:07:14,220 --> 00:07:20,400
the United States should be open.
Generally two people not only

80
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:25,740
Americans but from people around
the world. Um that the doors

81
00:07:25,740 --> 00:07:31,240
of all courthouses in civilized countries,
which the US considered

82
00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:38,360
it to be even in its infancy, should
be open to two deserving claims.

83
00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:45,250
And I think unfortunately we've
gotten away from that, as you

84
00:07:45,250 --> 00:07:51,960
know, a lot of my work is international
and sovereign immunity,

85
00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:57,090
It's very hard to break in
many cases, I've succeeded,

86
00:07:57,100 --> 00:08:01,960
we've succeeded in doing it in some
cases to assert jurisdiction

87
00:08:02,740 --> 00:08:09,540
over um major thwarts such as
the Bhopal gas disaster in U.

88
00:08:09,540 --> 00:08:16,780
S. Courts. However, ultimately
the Bhopal case was unfortunate

89
00:08:16,790 --> 00:08:22,110
because although we felt that
the US courts should be open to

90
00:08:22,110 --> 00:08:26,930
claimants, especially given
the challenges of the Indian court

91
00:08:26,930 --> 00:08:34,150
system and the defendant was Union
Carbide, based here in Connecticut,

92
00:08:35,140 --> 00:08:40,700
uh that the victims of Bhopal Gas
disaster should have recourse

93
00:08:40,700 --> 00:08:47,540
to the US courts to go after warren
Anderson, the ceo of Union

94
00:08:47,540 --> 00:08:51,930
Carbide and Union Carbide itself.
The courts, however, did not

95
00:08:51,930 --> 00:08:58,460
agree with us ultimately on that,
and I believe the justice 

96
00:08:58,460 --> 00:09:03,860
system fell short in that regard.
So there's been, well,

97
00:09:03,860 --> 00:09:08,660
the doors of US courts were largely
open when we were a young

98
00:09:08,660 --> 00:09:13,830
country over the last couple of
decades, I've seen a closing

99
00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:20,890
of that, of the judicial doors,
um racketeering statutes,

100
00:09:20,890 --> 00:09:27,070
civil RICO statutes, the extra
territorial or overseas impact

101
00:09:27,070 --> 00:09:33,600
of that. Uh the federal tort claims
act and sovereign immunity

102
00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:42,260
issues have largely been decided
um against in many cases,

103
00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:50,530
plaintiffs, even US citizens who
were subjected to um foreign

104
00:09:50,530 --> 00:09:56,640
towards victimized by foreign disasters.
Uh and I think that's

105
00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:01,350
wrong, but ultimately it's going
to take congress really to,

106
00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:07,940
I think, correct that um the closing
of the doors to both U.

107
00:10:07,940 --> 00:10:13,510
S. Citizens and and non US citizens.
We have, you know, the greatest

108
00:10:13,510 --> 00:10:19,160
court system, I think in the world,
other countries have started

109
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,840
to try and replicate or follow
us, maybe in class actions

110
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:30,660
contingency contingencies. But far
and away, we've given access

111
00:10:30,660 --> 00:10:36,280
both through statutes and common
law, uh, to, uh, ordinary people

112
00:10:36,290 --> 00:10:42,340
by incentivizing monetarily lawyers
to represent them and take

113
00:10:42,340 --> 00:10:47,950
on contingency and high-risk cases.
And it's generally worked

114
00:10:47,950 --> 00:10:55,810
out. But still the scales, in my
view are not completely evened

115
00:10:55,810 --> 00:11:01,570
up. And I see when I go to federal
court, it's largely become

116
00:11:01,570 --> 00:11:07,870
the venue of, um, large corporations
settling their disputes

117
00:11:07,870 --> 00:11:11,990
in federal court and the access
to the little guy civil rights

118
00:11:11,990 --> 00:11:19,170
cases and others. Well, well, not
for close to them, uh, is not

119
00:11:19,180 --> 00:11:22,940
completely on a level playing field.
Yeah. And I want to talk

120
00:11:22,940 --> 00:11:26,670
to you about that, how you, your
belief that what you've seen

121
00:11:26,670 --> 00:11:29,630
about how the law is shifted in
favor of the rich and powerful.

122
00:11:29,630 --> 00:11:33,350
But before we get to that, I
want to follow up, you said,

123
00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,890
you know, the doors are being shut
to people injured in other

124
00:11:36,890 --> 00:11:42,860
countries, even us citizens. Um,
And you said that maybe it'll

125
00:11:42,860 --> 00:11:45,650
take an act of Congress to fix
that. But I want to push you

126
00:11:45,650 --> 00:11:50,160
a little bit on that because cases
that I've had, um, in other

127
00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,400
countries. However, the courts
were taking them, I don't know

128
00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:58,160
20 years ago in the us, but gradually
at least the courts that

129
00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,950
I were involved based on the doctrine
of an inconvenient forum,

130
00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,760
all the cases gradually started
getting declined. And so,

131
00:12:07,770 --> 00:12:10,160
you know, what, what are you thinking
of? What type of act of

132
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:14,540
Congress could fix that? Because
the judges, it seems to me have

133
00:12:14,540 --> 00:12:19,180
gotten a lot more sympathetic to
the idea that these companies,

134
00:12:19,180 --> 00:12:22,340
these poor american companies
are being victimized by people

135
00:12:22,350 --> 00:12:27,050
who should just sue in the inadequate
courts where they got hurt.

136
00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:36,680
Well, I I certainly agree with your
analysis as to courts

137
00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:40,600
for example, in the Bhopal case,
Union Carbide would be a prime

138
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:46,410
example where the courts, in my
view really went out of their

139
00:12:46,410 --> 00:12:52,830
way to protect Union Carbide from
being subjected to plaintiff's

140
00:12:52,830 --> 00:12:59,600
claims in U. S. Courts. Ah my feeling
is that if US companies

141
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:04,160
want the benefit of doing business
here, of incorporating here,

142
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:09,010
Delaware and new york wherever else
in the US, then there should

143
00:13:09,010 --> 00:13:14,460
be, they should be subject um to
really recompense and accounting

144
00:13:15,180 --> 00:13:21,470
in new york and U. S. Courts and
the California courts. Um as

145
00:13:21,470 --> 00:13:27,610
you know, we're very strong in
the holocaust era when a number

146
00:13:27,610 --> 00:13:34,280
of federal cases were being thrown
out against um some of

147
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:40,360
the holocaust claims and I believe
it was the California Legislature

148
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:47,990
extended the statute of limitations
and indeed place certain

149
00:13:47,990 --> 00:13:52,350
banks and corporations and potential
jeopardy of losing their

150
00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,830
their state licenses, other states
have been much more, I think

151
00:13:57,830 --> 00:14:03,630
protective of the corporations
incorporated in them. Uh,

152
00:14:03,630 --> 00:14:11,660
and but the reach of federal law.
Us courts is really necessary

153
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:18,270
to go after and collect damages
from US corporations and you're

154
00:14:18,270 --> 00:14:23,520
right doctrines such as foreign
nonconvenience and uh can is

155
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:28,070
so discretionary with the judges
that any judge who doesn't want

156
00:14:28,070 --> 00:14:34,260
to hear a case doesn't have to hear
the case if they apply that

157
00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:39,820
that doctrine in a very broad
sense. So I tend to agree with

158
00:14:39,820 --> 00:14:43,640
you and I'm not sure, I think in
Foreign Sovereign immunities

159
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:51,830
act cases, I think the case law
has become so restrictive as

160
00:14:51,830 --> 00:14:58,060
far as jurisdiction over sovereign
acts, Even genocide cases,

161
00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:03,250
I've had unfortunately, some genocide
cases African generous

162
00:15:03,250 --> 00:15:09,590
side cases against Germany,
for example, where U. S.

163
00:15:09,590 --> 00:15:16,560
Citizens who were refugees from
African states such as Namibia

164
00:15:17,140 --> 00:15:22,480
and whose families had been subjected
to Really the first genocide

165
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:32,860
of the 20th century uh in uh
in uh 1903 Really to 1905

166
00:15:32,870 --> 00:15:41,180
by the German Imperial Forces uh were
ultimately denied um jurisdiction

167
00:15:41,180 --> 00:15:46,960
in U. S. Courts. And the courts went
on to say in denying jurisdiction

168
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:52,660
that clearly these wrongs have occurred,
but they should be they

169
00:15:52,660 --> 00:15:57,350
should be tried in another forum.
Well, the question arises,

170
00:15:57,350 --> 00:16:01,980
what other form is available? We
pursued claims in the United

171
00:16:01,980 --> 00:16:05,940
Nations, the European court of Human
rights and other international

172
00:16:05,940 --> 00:16:10,650
forums, but those are generally
available to sovereign entities

173
00:16:10,650 --> 00:16:16,460
to countries, not to individuals or
or non-governmental organizations.

174
00:16:16,940 --> 00:16:24,790
So without the U. S. Court jurisdiction,
there's largely no form

175
00:16:24,790 --> 00:16:31,360
available two victims victims
of genocide. Unfortunately,

176
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:37,670
yeah, we had some ford Firestone
cases that have that took place

177
00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:42,350
in Argentina and one was in federal
court and several in state

178
00:16:42,350 --> 00:16:46,440
court in florida. The florida
courts took them because there

179
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,930
was no other realistic forum. There
there was no forum available

180
00:16:50,930 --> 00:16:54,890
in Argentina because of their law
jurisdiction, the federal court

181
00:16:54,900 --> 00:16:58,800
and on appeal, it was a firm said
no Argentina is available in

182
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,060
its inconvenient forum. But of
course we went to Argentina and

183
00:17:02,070 --> 00:17:05,670
there there was no way to proceed.
So it was it was just a loser.

184
00:17:05,670 --> 00:17:09,910
E and it's just one more example
of how the law in the US in

185
00:17:09,910 --> 00:17:13,350
my opinion is shifting in favor
of the rich and powerful,

186
00:17:13,350 --> 00:17:16,570
which is something that you talk
about. So what have you seen,

187
00:17:16,570 --> 00:17:19,580
how have you seen the law shift in
favor of the rich and powerful

188
00:17:19,580 --> 00:17:29,770
in the US? Well, um I think
the two most recent examples

189
00:17:29,780 --> 00:17:37,270
I've run into are as I mentioned, I
think in genocide and international

190
00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:46,400
human rights cases where um we for
example, You know, 20-30 years

191
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:55,890
ago when the U. S. Courts began
applying the federal Tort claims

192
00:17:55,890 --> 00:18:01,970
act to international law claims
in various notable cases.

193
00:18:01,980 --> 00:18:07,630
We were very optimistic that this
would open the doors not to

194
00:18:07,630 --> 00:18:13,920
necessarily universal jurisdiction
but to an expansive jurisdiction

195
00:18:14,050 --> 00:18:19,730
in human rights cases ah particularly
the Chilean situation in

196
00:18:19,730 --> 00:18:25,140
various other latin american cases
where dictators were found

197
00:18:25,140 --> 00:18:31,960
and served at airports here or elsewhere.
Uh there was um jurisdiction

198
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:37,830
was upheld However, as I just mentioned
in the over herero and

199
00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:46,360
nama cases out of which occurred
in Namibia. But um these were

200
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:55,360
fundamental genocide cases and clear
cut violations of international

201
00:18:55,740 --> 00:19:01,710
human rights law and whether it
be war crimes crimes against

202
00:19:01,710 --> 00:19:05,440
humanity or genocide, there's nobody
will argue that those are

203
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:10,940
not international violations. And
we attempted to bring the case

204
00:19:10,940 --> 00:19:16,220
here in the US. We also certainly
notified and dealt with

205
00:19:16,220 --> 00:19:23,670
the UN on the issues, but they basically
had no form, There were

206
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:29,760
Upwards of 50% of the entire populations
of these tribes have

207
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:35,260
been decimated by Germany. The
german courts were not open to

208
00:19:35,260 --> 00:19:41,950
them and with the U. S. Courts being
closed to them, they really

209
00:19:41,950 --> 00:19:47,110
had no remedy another series
of cases we had, for example,

210
00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:53,020
perhaps timely to what we see on
the news today is I represented

211
00:19:53,030 --> 00:20:01,000
a number of opposition pro democracy
leaders Yulia Tymoshenko

212
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:06,950
and others who were in jail when
they reached out to me to see

213
00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:12,880
if we could bring a case in U. S.
Courts and they were subjected

214
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:18,160
to not only violations of civil rights,
trumped up criminal charges,

215
00:20:18,540 --> 00:20:23,900
denial of health care but other
violations of fundamental human

216
00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:29,530
rights. So I went over to Ukraine
and then filed cases in

217
00:20:29,530 --> 00:20:35,120
the Southern district here in
the U. S. District Court. And lo

218
00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:39,590
and behold, we found that Paul Manafort
and others who ultimately

219
00:20:39,590 --> 00:20:44,940
went to work for Donald  Trump. We're
really managing the political

220
00:20:44,940 --> 00:20:50,040
campaigns and governmental campaigns
of some of the pro-Russian,

221
00:20:50,050 --> 00:20:56,040
the pro-Russian dictator at
the time in any event, while

222
00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:01,730
the US courts were somewhat
sympathetic to the claims of

223
00:21:01,730 --> 00:21:08,170
the pro democracy leaders who are
denied civil and human rights

224
00:21:08,170 --> 00:21:14,970
in in Ukraine. Ultimately the court
did deny deny jurisdiction

225
00:21:14,980 --> 00:21:23,520
even though we found some evidence
of money laundering um by

226
00:21:23,530 --> 00:21:28,260
paul Manafort some of his cronies
and some of the pro Russian

227
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,500
Ukrainian oligarchs and governmental
leaders through banks in

228
00:21:33,500 --> 00:21:38,840
new york and the U. S. So we we
felt against a significant part

229
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:44,350
of their international racketeering
scheme and to suppress

230
00:21:44,350 --> 00:21:49,850
the pro democracy forces and to
make money through corruption

231
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:55,140
uh involved us banks. But the courts
have a lot of discretion

232
00:21:55,140 --> 00:21:59,990
as you know, and ultimately decided
that no the U. S. The U.

233
00:21:59,990 --> 00:22:06,210
S. Courts would be closed close
to that. We ultimately did bring

234
00:22:06,210 --> 00:22:13,050
a case against paul Manafort and
but that was ultimately um

235
00:22:13,060 --> 00:22:18,210
the special prosecutor prosecutor's
office and the U. S.

236
00:22:18,210 --> 00:22:21,920
Attorney's Office really took over
our investigation and proceeded

237
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:28,010
criminally against him. And we
were glad to be helpful there.

238
00:22:28,010 --> 00:22:33,930
But we felt that our clients in
the civil case really were not

239
00:22:33,930 --> 00:22:39,000
given a fair shake given the extent
of money that was being washed

240
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:44,430
through us Banks. Yeah that's just
another of the fascinating

241
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:49,860
cases in um in the book you've got
that we touched on the Exxon

242
00:22:49,860 --> 00:22:54,500
Valdez and Bhopal now, Ukraine
Manafort and Giuliani.

243
00:22:54,500 --> 00:22:58,170
You've got a cirque du Soleil case.
It's really fascinating and

244
00:22:58,170 --> 00:23:02,550
I recommend the book saving
the world one case at a time before

245
00:23:02,550 --> 00:23:05,170
we let you go though. Do you have
any advice for young lawyers?

246
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:13,280
Sure. Um you know, I've been teaching
for some time, not only

247
00:23:13,290 --> 00:23:18,480
in in law schools but also in
the political science department

248
00:23:18,530 --> 00:23:22,890
at Fairfield University and elsewhere.
So um, and I'm always

249
00:23:22,890 --> 00:23:27,730
asked, well, what are the opportunities
for a career such as

250
00:23:27,730 --> 00:23:33,630
yours and human civil rights, Environmental
law? And my answer

251
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:38,830
again, perhaps tongue in cheek, but
seriously is there is unlimited

252
00:23:38,830 --> 00:23:43,860
opportunities. And that's why I
and many of you, the students

253
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:49,270
went to law school was to not only
make a living, but to do well,

254
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,280
the tricky part of it is obviously
not going bankrupt in

255
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:59,510
the process and to make a living.
And fortunately I've been able

256
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:05,700
to do that. And I've also counseled
and taught subjects that

257
00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:09,910
I was never taught, in other words,
really had to pick and choose

258
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:15,860
a strong contingent fee case how to
properly investigate it beforehand

259
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,660
because you're pretty much stuck
with a case once you have it.

260
00:24:20,340 --> 00:24:26,660
Um I also um teach other younger
lawyers through the new york

261
00:24:26,660 --> 00:24:32,360
city Bar association legal referral
service And we have to really

262
00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:36,350
make a decision within 10 or 15
minutes of interviewing a client

263
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,410
really whether whether it's worth
pursuing and doing our due

264
00:24:40,410 --> 00:24:49,070
diligence further. So um I'm very
uh, you know, uh, I tell my

265
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,510
students that if, if there are
10 proposed cases to them and

266
00:24:53,510 --> 00:24:57,760
10 clients, you can give Nine of
them, you might be able to give

267
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,970
some good advice too, but you probably
shouldn't take their cases.

268
00:25:00,970 --> 00:25:05,710
It's really the one out of 10 case
that is going to be economically

269
00:25:05,710 --> 00:25:13,150
viable. Um, and if you want to take
a case on and pro bono cases

270
00:25:13,150 --> 00:25:17,010
and, and students and lawyers should
at least for a percentage

271
00:25:17,010 --> 00:25:21,860
of their case, but you should
be very aware when you take on

272
00:25:22,540 --> 00:25:27,200
a pro bono case and not do it
through lack of due diligence,

273
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:33,550
vetting investigation. So the upfront
investigation costs are

274
00:25:33,550 --> 00:25:36,820
well worth it, whether it
be a wrongful death case,

275
00:25:36,820 --> 00:25:43,000
personal injury, environmental case,
civil rights case, you may

276
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,910
think that, you know, you wasted
a lot of time if you ultimately

277
00:25:46,910 --> 00:25:52,760
decide not to bring the case. But
uh, I assure the students that

278
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,230
that is much better than the alternative,
which is to take on

279
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,900
a bunch of cases and then find
out after you've committed to

280
00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:05,960
a client pursue their case to find
out that there are fatal flaws

281
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:13,110
in it. So that's, that's really,
um, something which they didn't

282
00:26:13,110 --> 00:26:17,700
teach in law school then and
we had to learn the hard way.

283
00:26:17,700 --> 00:26:22,890
Perhaps some of the rest of us
along the way. But that's,

284
00:26:22,900 --> 00:26:26,900
that's the kind of advice I give
to students. Yeah, that's great

285
00:26:26,900 --> 00:26:31,780
advice. So thank you very much.
We really appreciate you being

286
00:26:31,780 --> 00:26:34,860
with us and again, saving
the world one case at a time.

287
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:36,460
Thanks so much, john.